Caporal Èric Bernier, who is the Dossiers (archives) du Régiment, answered me telling me that "There is no Engeneer in the Royal 22e Régiment, only infantry person, the Engeneer is a other Unit. That meen that the person in the picture is not a 22, but may have been one earlyer or later and change Unit with the time, This can be possible..."
Mr. Bernier is referring to the Royal Canadian Engineers a unit of the Canadian Army which had no connection to the R 22e R Unit. This means that, for all intents and purposes, the man on the left in the photo below is not Donat Catudal.
A big thank-you to Bettyann for having questioned my assumptions. She saved me from making a big mistake.
On the blog page http://www.catudals.com/2011/04/additional-catudal-military-information.html Bettyann, who is the wife of Real Catudal who is the son of Donat Catudal on whom the blog is about, and I have been having a discussion about the fact that the side-by-side picture I placed on that blog may not be of Donat after all. Here is that picture:
It has been a very interesting back and forth and I wanted to highlight it here for several reasons, the most important being, does anyone have concrete answers to the questions being posed? And does anyone else have the following picture in their photo albums and do they know with absolute certainty who the person standing in the middle is?
Here is the back and forth discussion we've been having - as can also be viewed under the Comments for that blog:
Hi Judy I would like to comment on the two pictures of Donat Catudal. The one on the right of the screen is a picture we have of my husband Real's father Donat. After looking at the two pictures posted Real has a question of the picture on the left as to weather it is his father Donat. The reason he is question this picture is the military hat he is wearing, the emblem on the hat should be the same in both pictures as that was the unit he served in while in Germany.
Yours sincerely
Bettyann Catudal, husband is Real Paul Joseph Catudal
Yours sincerely
Bettyann Catudal, husband is Real Paul Joseph Catudal
Hi Bettyann,
Right now I am on holidays. When I get back I will try to find out more. Thank you very much for bringing this discrepancy up. I very much appreciate your comments. I'll be back in a week.
Judy
Right now I am on holidays. When I get back I will try to find out more. Thank you very much for bringing this discrepancy up. I very much appreciate your comments. I'll be back in a week.
Judy
Hi Bettyann,
I have some follow-up information for you. You brought up a very interesting observation regarding the discrepancy in cap badges worn in the two pictures of Donat and questioned whether this could be the same person because of this discrepancy. I am going to write a blog on this issue but just short here: I believe it is the same person for a few reasons; the discrepancy in the cap badges could be due to the fact that Donat was promoted to Captain status and may have been given a different cap badge to distinguish him above the others.
Second, the two men look very very much alike.
Third, the two other men in the photo which is shown in an earlier blog also are from the same regiment R 22e R and each has a different cap badge.
And, probably most significant, I found the picture in the Catudal family picture albums handed down to me from my grandmother who recently passed away. Donat was my grandfather's 1st cousin. This makes it more likely that it was Donat.
I have spent quite a bit of time trying to find out if the Royal 22e Regiment indeed had a special cap badge for officers just to be sure and have not been able to find anything but will continue to search. I am also going to send the picture to a couple of cousins who come from this side of the family.
What makes me a bit uneasy is that your husband Real is not sure if the picture on the left is of his father. He would be the best person to say if a picture is of his father or not. Is it only the badge that is throwing him off?
Judy
I have some follow-up information for you. You brought up a very interesting observation regarding the discrepancy in cap badges worn in the two pictures of Donat and questioned whether this could be the same person because of this discrepancy. I am going to write a blog on this issue but just short here: I believe it is the same person for a few reasons; the discrepancy in the cap badges could be due to the fact that Donat was promoted to Captain status and may have been given a different cap badge to distinguish him above the others.
Second, the two men look very very much alike.
Third, the two other men in the photo which is shown in an earlier blog also are from the same regiment R 22e R and each has a different cap badge.
And, probably most significant, I found the picture in the Catudal family picture albums handed down to me from my grandmother who recently passed away. Donat was my grandfather's 1st cousin. This makes it more likely that it was Donat.
I have spent quite a bit of time trying to find out if the Royal 22e Regiment indeed had a special cap badge for officers just to be sure and have not been able to find anything but will continue to search. I am also going to send the picture to a couple of cousins who come from this side of the family.
What makes me a bit uneasy is that your husband Real is not sure if the picture on the left is of his father. He would be the best person to say if a picture is of his father or not. Is it only the badge that is throwing him off?
Judy
Wondering if we are talking about the same Donat. Yes Donat served in WW2 but his top rank was Corporal. The reason is he enlisted and his education was maybe Grade 2. It would have been hard for him to make Captain because of that. The picture on the right is a picture we have in our family album, we go and visit his grave site when we are in Granby.
Also the more common name of the regiment he was with was the Vandoo's.
Bettyann
Also the more common name of the regiment he was with was the Vandoo's.
Bettyann
Hi Judy would you supply your grandfather's name. I have a genelogy book that someone in Real's family has done and we can check to see if we are talking about the same Donat Catudal. Although the picture on the right is certainly Real's father and so is the picture of his grave site. Bettyann
Donat Catudal fils de Pierre Catudal alage de 20 ans dans le Royal 22ieme Regiment de 1939-45.
Donat Catudal[Memuisier] {16-Avril-1919]- m.[24-Aout-1946] Yvette Favreau [31-Aout-1922]- Donat fut enrole dans le 22 ieme Royal Regiment alage de 20 ans, de 192-39 a 1945. Il est lum de nose derniers veterans. Merci Donat
(Real's Father and Mother)
Pierre Catudal nais: Mars-1867, Valcourt, Remarque: Il est decede du coeur, mariage: 03-Aout-1896, a Valcourt, Delia Boisse, nais: Aout-1880, Stukeley. (fille de Jean-Baptists Boisse et Celina Couture) Remarque: 12 enfants, deces 22-mai 1934, Granby a 53 and 9 mois. Pierre deces 19- sept- 1929, Valcourt a 62 ans 6 mois.
(this is Real's grand father)
Donat Catudal[Memuisier] {16-Avril-1919]- m.[24-Aout-1946] Yvette Favreau [31-Aout-1922]- Donat fut enrole dans le 22 ieme Royal Regiment alage de 20 ans, de 192-39 a 1945. Il est lum de nose derniers veterans. Merci Donat
(Real's Father and Mother)
Pierre Catudal nais: Mars-1867, Valcourt, Remarque: Il est decede du coeur, mariage: 03-Aout-1896, a Valcourt, Delia Boisse, nais: Aout-1880, Stukeley. (fille de Jean-Baptists Boisse et Celina Couture) Remarque: 12 enfants, deces 22-mai 1934, Granby a 53 and 9 mois. Pierre deces 19- sept- 1929, Valcourt a 62 ans 6 mois.
(this is Real's grand father)
Hi Bettyann,
We are talking about the same Donat Catudal - Armand Donat Lucien Catudal (1919-1997).
The reason I said that Donat reached the rank of Captain is because his headstone has the inscription "CAP. DONAT CATUDAL". I didn't take into account that the French word for Corporal is Caporal making the acronym of CAP a likley acronym from the French word of Caporal and not from the English word Captain. Thank you for questioning the rank, otherwise I would have let my English background cloud my interpretation of this acronym, something I fear happened all too often by the English when they were transcribing French data.
Just a very slight correction on the dates you mentioned: You have Donat's wife Yvette as having been born on 31 August 1922. Yvette was born on 30 August 1922 and baptized on 31 August 1922.
My grandfather's name was Adelard Catudal (1900-1983). His name at baptism and on the 1901 Canadian Census was Napoleon but was never called that in day-to-day life. His parent's were Barthelemy Catudal (1864-1937)and Josephine Isola Agnes Boisse (1877-1962).
By-the-way, the Van Doos Royal 22e Régiment have a wonderful Web page at http://www.r22er.com/index.html
I too am not sure that the photo on the left is of Donat either and it isn't because of the cap badges being different but rather because of the style of the cap itself. I am still looking into uniform dress and cap differences. I do know that the person on the left hand side picture is wearing the standard uniform that all army personnel wore after 1939 until war's end. I just don't know 100% if the hat was a part of all standard uniforms. I have my doubts.
If you go to the Web page
http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/commun/ml-fe/images/articles/fullSize/10-25-02b.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/commun/ml-fe/photo-eng.asp%3Fid%3D1482&usg=__lTkTAjsOEnFFI_J-rx_Lj0BEMCs=&h=480&w=384&sz=44&hl=en&start=3&sig2=53wkiyJd9n84gmcKAQnm5g&zoom=1&itbs=1&tbnid=vULOmjiP-7Kx5M:&tbnh=129&tbnw=103&prev=/search%3Fq%3DMCpl%2BChristian%2BDuchesne%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26biw%3D1599%26bih%3D929%26tbm%3Disch%26prmd%3Divnso&ei=-cW_Ta38NY704Qa46uHfBA
you will see a picture of Master Corporal Chrisitan Duchesne with the R 22e R company who recently was killed in Afghanistan. You will notice that his cap badge is different than the standard cap badges. I still think that rank had something to do with the badge being different. In fact, although the cap badge in the picture on the left is hard to see, the outline looks very much lik MCpl Chrisitan Duchesne's in the picture from the above Web site.
Regards,
Judy
We are talking about the same Donat Catudal - Armand Donat Lucien Catudal (1919-1997).
The reason I said that Donat reached the rank of Captain is because his headstone has the inscription "CAP. DONAT CATUDAL". I didn't take into account that the French word for Corporal is Caporal making the acronym of CAP a likley acronym from the French word of Caporal and not from the English word Captain. Thank you for questioning the rank, otherwise I would have let my English background cloud my interpretation of this acronym, something I fear happened all too often by the English when they were transcribing French data.
Just a very slight correction on the dates you mentioned: You have Donat's wife Yvette as having been born on 31 August 1922. Yvette was born on 30 August 1922 and baptized on 31 August 1922.
My grandfather's name was Adelard Catudal (1900-1983). His name at baptism and on the 1901 Canadian Census was Napoleon but was never called that in day-to-day life. His parent's were Barthelemy Catudal (1864-1937)and Josephine Isola Agnes Boisse (1877-1962).
By-the-way, the Van Doos Royal 22e Régiment have a wonderful Web page at http://www.r22er.com/index.html
I too am not sure that the photo on the left is of Donat either and it isn't because of the cap badges being different but rather because of the style of the cap itself. I am still looking into uniform dress and cap differences. I do know that the person on the left hand side picture is wearing the standard uniform that all army personnel wore after 1939 until war's end. I just don't know 100% if the hat was a part of all standard uniforms. I have my doubts.
If you go to the Web page
http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/commun/ml-fe/images/articles/fullSize/10-25-02b.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/commun/ml-fe/photo-eng.asp%3Fid%3D1482&usg=__lTkTAjsOEnFFI_J-rx_Lj0BEMCs=&h=480&w=384&sz=44&hl=en&start=3&sig2=53wkiyJd9n84gmcKAQnm5g&zoom=1&itbs=1&tbnid=vULOmjiP-7Kx5M:&tbnh=129&tbnw=103&prev=/search%3Fq%3DMCpl%2BChristian%2BDuchesne%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26biw%3D1599%26bih%3D929%26tbm%3Disch%26prmd%3Divnso&ei=-cW_Ta38NY704Qa46uHfBA
you will see a picture of Master Corporal Chrisitan Duchesne with the R 22e R company who recently was killed in Afghanistan. You will notice that his cap badge is different than the standard cap badges. I still think that rank had something to do with the badge being different. In fact, although the cap badge in the picture on the left is hard to see, the outline looks very much lik MCpl Chrisitan Duchesne's in the picture from the above Web site.
Regards,
Judy
Good afternoon - I ran across the discussions about Donat Catudal while looking for some information about my father. My father, Joseph Boisse, and his cousin Donat Catudal both enlisted in the 22 at about the same time and served overseas together. My brother Phil Boisse who lives in Drummondville has all of the old family pictures including quite a few of Donat
ReplyDeletehi there
DeleteI came accross this webpage , serching for my family history on my dad side. i am the greatgranddaughter of Armand ( Herman) Boisse son of Jean Baptiste Boisse and Celina Couture...From what I read he would be the brother of Delia and brother in law of Pierre Catudal I dont know if you have any infos
I have your Boisse line going back to 1620 and your Couture line going back to 1587 - I don't have all the children from every generation because I was concentrating on the lines as it pertained to my Catudal research and other lines of interest but I have all the marriages. I do have a fair bit of information on your most famous relative, Guillaume Couture (1618-1701) which I wrote about at some length in my first book. I'd be happy to share it with you if you wish. If you write to me at judy@catudals.com so that I have your name and e-mail address I will send you what I have on those two lines.
DeleteJudy
Giesle Boisse, I am sorry I never responded to your comment. I somehow missed the notice that I had a comment. I have a cousin Pierre Catudal who would be more than a little interested in getting into contact with your Brother Phil. I don't want to put his e-mail address in this e-mail but if you write to me at judy@catudals.com I'll reply with his e-mail address. I think Phil will be blown-away with how much Pierre looks like his great-Uncle. Again, sorry for the delay.
DeleteJudy